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NOREButler

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  1. I have to admit that i can understand where your aversion against NU players comes from considering highly decorated players get swept by Pikachu and Omastar. No idea why they would offer team building advise though. Fucked up an edit, derp.
  2. No, sand veil usage is not the most important thing to consider looking at this chart. While using august usages was my fault, since i didnt know you could still check july usages, i can now say that trends are similar, albeit with slightly less discrepancy (so far). In july the sand veil usage differs btw, so only 2% súck undeniably. Ill argue based on july stats from now on tho - my bad. Apart from that i wonder why you didnt comment the first half of that paragraph. Can dugtrio afford to take a way more offensive approach than in OU, yes or no? And if you think it doesnt, why? I also struggle to see why someone shouldnt get involved in tiering if he reaches logicial and beneficial conclusions "despite" playing NU. Its not like the tier is garbage, because too many NU players got involved with tiering over the couple of last years. Exactly and thats why i know that froslass (7%) + golem (12%) pressures a shitton of hazard cores and that combo (+ Pikachu) already started to spike when the Biba hat was the grindable vanity. Serp is using light clay 83% of the time -> no defog (and its a terrible defogger, which you probably know as well), Golbat (rocks weak) struggles with Lix, Pilo, Froslass, Nido and Golem depending on its set (not too reliable is it? Interesting usage stat), Hitmons struggle with high Rotom and Slowbro usage, Golem is not a reliable spinner either considering it lacks recovery and running custap 86% of the times its used probably has a reason. Cryogonal (rocks weak) is not a terrible defogger, but Houndoom, Escava, Blaziken, Typhlosion, Fera, Gallade, Clef come in on it with relative ease, unless you go with Speed and SpA heavy investments, which then again lets it spin (defog >) less reliably. Mantines legit tho and imo the best and consistent defogger the tier has to offer. If im wrong about the initial statement regarding duggy running sash less often, because the hazard meta is difficult to handle, it further strengthens my argumentation that duggy can trap with less effort yoloing scarf/band however. Yeah, example indeed wasnt the smartest. I dont really remember what i was trying to say there, so i gotta give you that one without putting up a fight. The tier goes through shake ups every three months, (huge and you even agreed on that one on multiple occasions); theres way less traffic than in OU and tiering regarding NU is a giant clusterfuck - has been since the introduction of new mons. Naturally OU would have a higher quality level of competition. No idea what you´d expect and why you have to call out NU players when you should, and probably do, very well know players arent to blame. I would also have guessed some mons with low usage higher up, because they are too good to pass up on, but NU usage is not made up by people spamming cb flareon regardless. ..."People suck"...and just yesterday you asked if we had viability rankings as reference point. Yes, you have to work for stuff like Nido, but revenge killing a bunch of NUs best offensive mons at 100% or with some slight chip, because the tier consists of glass cannons is indeed rather effortless. Should have outlined that i was talking about revenge killing i guess, altough i thought that anybody working through that post, would be able to realise i wasnt thinking that you can blindly throw Dugtrio in front of a bus called Blaziken, Typh, or Drapion. My bad... Defensive pokes like Nido, or Lix (which hardly gets trapped, but w/e) can indeed run shed shell if the team relies on them very heavily, touche, but that bulk of offensive mons it traps simply cant to function properly. Mag primarily traps defensive mons; dug traps everything, so only nitpicking Nido there is a tad lazy. Maybe, because like you said, it is easier to avoid being trapped by mag than it is to avoid being trapped by dugtrio, due to arena trap not affecting 2 (!) types. Its such a huge difference of reach between magnet pull and arena trap and the fact you are trying to mitigate that by those "arguments" is just so ridiculous to me. Second half is such an odd statement. Obviously, its not too smart to stack fire mons, but why would a balance shell centered around two offensive mons dugtrio traps, lets say Blaziken and Vani, be bad by default? I agree that you need to be good if you wanna maximise arena trap, as everything in mons, but you even say it yourself several times: Arena Trap is quite uncompetitive. If i had to choose between the two i would go with the least cancer, over the most cancer, but ideally i would not want cancer at all. If it simplifies games, its efficiency cant rely too much on skill either. The reason nobody is every gonna use Trapinch again is that it has 10 base speed. I mean cmon, do we really need to discuss why 120 base speed in conjunction with 80 base att (which isnt that great indeed, but sufficient for NU) is way better than 10 base speed and 100 base att? And while its movepool is indeed shallow, it doesnt need more than EQ, Edge and Sucker. It lacking move options is not an argument, since it doesnt hinder it doing its job. Fun fact: Its base speed even allows scarf Duggy to tweak def evs to live Doom sucker punches, and having a favourable roll vs Absol non crit ones, if you settle for outspeeding 95 base positive natured scarfers/+1 mons and avoid prior chip damage. Yesnt, it doesnt oneshot the whole tier, otherwise we would hardly be discussing it, but it undeniably can trap a decent portion of the current meta game with a low skill dependency and hinders mons from being part of it, thus denies meta development. Which btw is a point you completely ignored, tho i can understand why, since you are working under the assumption that everybody playing NU is too pooped to discover it wholly.
  3. Luckily doesnt influence duggy in NU and doesnt make arena trap less uncompetitive, but didnt know that, so thanks.
  4. OU duggy: NU duggy: Almost no difference in usage of jolly natures, but almost 8% increase in usage of adamant in NU in addition to a whopping 28% higher usage of choice scarf. While choice band usage only increases by 4,6% in comparison, there is more life orb dugtrios in NU than theres cb dugs in OU. In OU theres also way more focus sash dugtrios than in NU, so its more likely to be used to stop certain things from getting out of hand over effortlessly trapping offensive mons. Hazard meta stability might also allow dug to run more sashes, but is a con duggy argument in NU, because being more unreliably able to remove hazards plays into dugtrios hands regarding chip it needs to score KOs. You simply cant just yolo duggy in OU if you want it to do something consistently, its gets way more offensively oriented in NU however. Might be due to stronger base stat destributions, way stronger priority, less reliance on things dugtrio traps in a better balanced tier (its harder to enable reunicles than it is to enable espeon) and a wider variety of viable playstyles (afaik you can run stall in OU consistently, while you cant in NU), so while it can be useless in NU matches as well the chances of that happening are way higher in OU. If you take a look at NU usage you see that it always revenge kills typh, blaze and drap by just being ada scarf (50% vs drap if jolly scarf, to ensure to revenge scarf typh, which i think is bad though). Three top 10 usage offensive behemoths trapped safely and without any effort at all. Apart from gengar, i dont see any top 10 usage mon in OU that effortlessly gets trapped, considering gengar being able to kill stuff behind a sub, which makes it a 1 and 1% duggy for 1 every now and then. If you factor in scarf sets on chomp or gengar it gets even worse. Also theres a wider variety in defensive answers to certain threats in OU, which leads to dugtrio enabling preset strategies more reliably in NU, which Huargensy explained sufficiently already. Base stat retribution, cant stress that enough. Dugtrios base speed is amazing in the NU meta game. It ties with sceptile, so behind swellow, it shares the second highest base speed in NU after aero move up due to OU usage, unless you want to factor in accelgor, which is used 2,5% of the time and carries damp rock 97% of the time, so ill ignore it for that argument - you get my point tho. Basically dugtrio outspeeds every unboosted/scarfed mon in the meta game. Defensive base stat retribution has to be factored in as well here and by virtue of talking about the lowest mmo tier these fall short in comparison to other tiers, so duggy traps offensive stuff way more reliably as well (in addition to a lack of strong and reliable/spammable priority). Frail mons like doom (timid sits at 18%, so np is evidentally and logically bad in a dugtrio influenced meta), espeon, vanilluxe (edge ohkos after rocks/chip), gallade, zoro (funny that shit is NU, but whatever) the three mentioned above are trapped safely as well. Meta game development: this one is probably a tad speculative, because developing a stable meta game is probably never gonna happen in NU due to constant movement cycles and how tiering works in this game, but if we look at current usages, we could assume that magmortar could do fairly well, sitting at 83 base speed, and having a solid standing with bro, rotom, venu, mantine, steelix, vani high up - not an option, because duggy. Toying around with defensive emboars? - not gonna happen. Camerupt, because typh, rotom and eel have high usage? - nope. Electric types that arent rotom to react to slowbro - nope. Some gimmicky, but maybe efficient glues to toy around with like chinchou or lampent... denied. Jynx, toxicroak ( i know slowbro is high up there, but gunk calcs are fun, so are np ones, also theres fera and 85 base speed) - no. So in addition to already trapping and revenging a solid portion the current usage list, it hinders development to take place. Arena trap isnt uncompetitive, because mag can trap as well: a) thats four pokemon in OU, b) skarm (maybe even ferro? idk) can afford to run shed shell arguably, which NUs cant, scizor pivots spamming u-turn, exca makes you work harder for it, c) mag traps one of these and doesnt threaten to trap additional mons, unless you are a steel type gym leader. Switching is a key part of playing competitive pokemon. Taking that autonomy away from people disturbs a key rule of this game. As explained above mags do the same, but you can, and if you are somewhat decent always will, prepare for mag if you want to run one of the steels (which is one out of 17 available types in mmo) listed above. Duggy potentially traps 16 of these unless they carry levitate as their ability. In conclusion; dugtrio is way less risk and way higher reward in NU and comparisons between arena trap and magnet pull are just plain stupid. And yes, arena trap is uncompetitive. @MadaraSixSixI havent said you are a bad tc. What i said is that your arguments arent sufficient enough to convince anybody on the contra dug side of the spectrum and that has nothing to do with how many tournaments you´ve won, nor does it have anything to do with how many i have won - period. Regarding your credibility argument: This is your chance to completely dismantle my post to prove that i have no credibility whatsoever. Im looking forward to it.
  5. Spoiler, cause somewhat of a derail. Yeah, people are complaining about dugtrio 6:0ing the whole tier, right.
  6. So people just need to copy your teams now instead of running the mons they´d like to run, because your "original" builds don´t struggle with duggy at all. They can also just play stuff that sets up on duggy, right? Like biba/samu - inferior feras or lilli, thats been shit for ages, or SD (?) zard, because slowbro in the tier makes set up zards so damn amazing, ooooor mantine...? Any other random unrelated shit mon you suggested? The fact your builds don´t struggle with dugtrio doesnt make it any healtier. And if your opponent has a dugtrio and it does nothing vs a cb blaziken in your team, then that opponent might be less good than you are trying to sell here, so i really am struggling to figure out how that pararaph has any essence at all. Being able to set up on a certain mon doesnt make it any healthier and if you can prep for dugtrio killing your mons to set up afterwards, maybe your opponent can prep for that as well? If you set up on it, it probably did its job already. Dugtrio not preventing games from being played (whatever that even means) doesnt mean it isnt stupidly restrictive in building and playing. Maybe its because of language barrier (though i kinda doubt that), but your arguments aren´t good arguments at all. Or because they are bad, which most people just are. Heard good players are able to build teams around certain mons without the team being bad. - Idk how it is hard to see that dugtrio is unhealthy af for the tier. It turns running certain mons - not even just offensive ones - into mu fishing shit fests. Im not playing anymore (partly because tiering in this game is just a fkn farce [,so thanks i guess]), which means i can just sit back and watch you guys break the roserade ban refusal record with dugtrio in peace. That ignorance is just baffling however, considering all the reasonable input of well known players thats been gathered already.
  7. Kinda odd when you play the whole season to test teams and then when seasonal approaches you gotta build new ones without even knowing meta trends / having the chance to test teams in mm, because lower tiers are dead.
  8. Duggy sure influenced the UU meta, but as Quinn stated the mons that are in tier were able to handle Dugtrio pretty well naturally and the mons that didnt are Lanturn and Torkoal, so it never had a decent standing to begin with and looking at Dugtrios usage it probably isnt worth slotting it to try to trap Lanturn and Torkoal. I dont play UU tho, so the further we get into this the more id have to guess, which is just meh. I have to admit that i thought it still sat at 100 base attack and (cb) 80 base doesnt nuke the defensive meta, but as a matter of fact, the mons that you probably aim to trap dont have priority apart from maybe Blaziken and mons have lower base stats than in other tiers by nature. Doing some calcs on frailer stuff i see it also traps a lot of annoying shit after some prior damage, like Drapion, Doom, Blaziken, Espeon, Omastar, so the more i think about it the more i like the idea of giving it a shot, guessing that it could ease role compression pressure supporting more balanced builds. What i think most people are afraid of, or at least i am, is that if it ends up being terribly misplaced in NU, its gonna take ages for it to be put to BL. But yeah, taking more time i like the idea of testing it, despite its ability being the dumbest uncompetitive shit there is - or because it is?
  9. If you explained how the tiers adapted to Dugtrio this might be easier to answer, because just looking at the tiers via dex filter, i dont see how the tiers needed to adapt to it. Could look up usage and check if it ever even had any usage demanding adaption in OU and UU, or if its just never been that great in these two tiers.
  10. Taking his answer into account he probably meant what i thought he meant, otherwise he would have just said what you said now. Why it rose in usage also is directly connected to what it means for the NU meta: (it indicates that) keeping momentum with u-turn while forcing very linear switches it chips, which it couldnt do before, because it only had baton pass and getting a second high bp stab move, which unlike the old option (sp) is rather spammable, in conjunction with a base 120 base attack, is pretty difficult for the current NU meta to handle. Ofc you can go further into specifics (timid Omastar > ; scarfers starting at 81+ speed to handle Blaze), but that doesnt mean what i said didnt answer his question/statement. And i didnt say theres anything wrong with bringing it up, its just odd that someone in his position doesnt know what a sudden usage spike might indicate. Speaking of what Blaze and Duggy being in the same tier means: Dugtrio can revenge kill Blaziken if scarfed/intact sash, but i think that we can agree on that not making Dugtrio a good drop all of a sudden, because it doesnt just stop at revenge killing Blaziken. What does Duggy trap for Blaze: Nidoqueen, since bold helmet was a decent way to punish anything Blaze has, Stunfisk, Rhydon, faster scarfers, probably plenty of other stuff, but cant log to browse dex rn. We have bulky mons left that "check" Blaziken, but those are immediately threatened out, just like Slowbro was. I dont intend to turn this into a Blaziken discussion; i think ive stated my opinion about Blaze by expressing my hopes of UU people using it. Blaziken isnt the only reason Dugtrio going NU is just a terrible idea tho and id really appreciate if we could get an insight on why Dugtrio is gonna drop. Last time we saw a drop to "just test and see how it goes" was Rose and it stayed NU for months, altough it never should have gotten there in the first place.
  11. How about allowing people to join tc discord and giving them "read only" - rights?
  12. No offense, but if you dont know why Blaziken suddenly spikes after getting U-Turn (!!!) over BP and CC over Superpower while sitting at a decent speed tier for a scarfed mon i dont know why you´re actively involved in tiering. Whats the purpose of selected comp players forming a tier council when they cant even do their job. Could just put a bunch of randoms in and ignore their input. Only difference would be that they´re incapable of cleaning up the mess afterwards. I know its a dead horse tho, so ill just go my way and hatch Charmanders..
  13. Always thought tc was the problem, despite reading seniles post. I was a pretty ignorant fool.
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