octet
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Posts posted by octet
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3, octet
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6 minutes ago, RysPicz said:
It wouldn't accomplish much imo. We did something like that with Snorlax few years back (banned curse on it) but shortly after ended up banning the mon itself. I think Snorlax reached 70% usage back then, though, while Togekiss' usage isn't alarming by any chance (15% means it's being used often but it's not like Incineroar's usage in VGC). The way I see it; the pokemon itself in this particular metagame is the problem, it's combination of base stats, speed, ability, movepool, bulk paired with the metagame's most common tendencies (running lots of slow, bulky pokemons such as Scizor/ Conk and then a lot of walls) which are also coming from the availability of the pokes in our meta.
Yea, good point. I wasn't around to see that. I still don't think a ban is necessary at this point since it's only at 15% usage, it's not like every team is coming in with a Togekiss because it's just that OP. If it edges up near Scizor, that's extremely worrisome though.
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1 minute ago, Impulse5095 said:
They wont ever do a ban like that. You can’t ban one move on a mon and not others.
Nasty plot is banned on Cofagrigus as well as Mismagius. They already *have* done a ban like that.
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Okay, I slept on it. Togekiss is definitely a bigger issue than I thought.
1 hour ago, RysPicz said:If we really will have to reach for such an obscure mon as Golbat just to counter Togekiss, then it should be banned right away.
100% agree, that's pretty ridiculous.
What do you guys think about banning Aura Sphere and/or Nasty Plot on Togekiss? I think it would make it a bit more balanced, but it's still an issue.
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2 minutes ago, razimove said:
You even quoted the part where I spoke of rocks, and aura sphere on ttar entrance, sigh I give up.
4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 144-172 (35.6 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That's using your EV's.
So a Ttar comes into an initial Aura Sphere and takes Stealth Rock damage.
Still gives a chance for Ttar to take it out with Stone Edge right?
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4 minutes ago, suigin said:
Most Togekiss are either stallbreakers (Air Slash, Nasty Plot, Heal Bell, Roost) or Sub attackers (Air Slash, Aura Sphere, Sub, Nasty Plot) with the odd scarf user and Twave spammer used rarely but effectively.
You're right, I forgot to consider heal bell. That's definitely a solid answer to the toxic argument.
As for Razimove's arguments, I will give you cloyster, it's no match for a Toge that carries Aura Sphere.
24 minutes ago, razimove said:__
4 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 80-96 (38.6 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
she can safely withdraw, with only 40% damage from pursuit, and either way she outspeeds, so if there's rocks on the field, and she aura spheres on the switch you struggle with your 'counter'
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252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 384-452 (102.6 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A stone edge threatens just about every Togekiss set. Not to say this isn't slightly risky as Stone Edge doesn't always hit but it's still fairly reliable.
13 minutes ago, Zymogen said:Well the situations that you are describing would lead one to believe that the "counters" are switching into Togekiss which, more often than not, is free to set up a Nasty Plot on said switch. Even without a boost, a lot of the Pokemon that you listed have a difficult time preventing the Togekiss from setting up and/or forcing it out - especially the Sub/Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere/Air Slash set.
Fair point - these mons are almost always going to be switching into something rather than being sent out first against the toge. Still, a bit unfair to say they'll always go for a Nasty Plot IMO.
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Just now, Zymogen said:
You based your claims on the Thunder Wave set - which we all have publicly expressed is one of Togekiss' least powerful sets
The majority of this discussion has been solely around any variation of the Nasty Plot sets.
No, I'm fine with Nasty plot set, I just don't like assuming that it's ALREADY set up a nasty plot.
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So, I'm confused. My list is based around a Togekiss with NO stat boosts, yours seems to be based on one with a Nasty plot up already.
Seems a bit unfair, no? Not EVERY Togekiss has nasty plot, or gets a chance to set it up without taking ANY damage whatsoever.
If you revise your list, without taking in to account Nasty Plot I think it'll look a bit more fair.
Thanks,
octet/
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I may be a little late to this discussion, but banning togekiss? Really? There are a lot of counters and checks to in the current OU tier.
Hippowdon. (Hippowdon can destroy any Togekiss, it’s not threatened by a Thunder Wave, and it can recover with Slack Off if you find yourself being worn down too much. The sandstorm also should help you take it down since it will negate Toge’s leftovers recovery.)
Jolteon. (Pretty hard counter, an air slash doesn't particularly threaten it and a thunderbolt can pick off just about any togekiss in 1-2 moves.)
Cloyster. (Again, can pick off just about any togekiss without taking too much damage. Possibly set up a shell smash in the process? Watch out though since that will lower your defenses, if without a white herb.)
Volcarona. (I was a bit hesitant to put this one on the list, but I’ve seen Volcaronas take Togekisses down before, especially if they carry leftovers. If you can get a Quiver Dance up, you’re pretty much set.)
Tyranitar/Excadrill. (Again a bit risky, since Togekiss can carry Aura Sphere, but most of them don’t and you can scope out it’s set pretty easily. Like Hippowdon, sand is your friend!)
Tentacruel. (A full special defense Tenta will surely threaten any Toge, especially with a Sludge Bomb poison. This is more of a check than a counter because it will rely on some luck)
Some tips for dealing with this pesky flincher:
Be conscious of the roost: Since roost removes the flying type from Togekiss, make sure you’re predicting this and attacking accordingly.
Watch out for Thunder Wave: Paralyzation can cripple a sweeper due to the speed drop, and it increases the chance you won’t be able to move from 60% to 70%.
Set up Stealth Rocks!! They’ll wear down any incoming Togekiss and make it much harder for them to switch into attacks.
Toxic that Toge: Toxic can seriously threaten a stall Toge, it can’t stay in as long and it has trouble recovering.
Taunt: Taunting can also stop a Toge from recovering as well as paralyzing with Twave.
Sand: Togekisses do not like sandstorms, it hinders their ability to recover, and they go down a lot quicker with that in mind.
Another point I would like to address, I hear a lot of people saying Togekiss takes no skill.
This just isn’t true. While it does take less prediction than your typical OU pokemon, you still have to time roosts correctly and know when to Thunder Wave.
In conclusion, no, Togekiss doesn’t belong in Ubers. It is however an annoying mon which anyone can play pretty easily.
There are simply too many pokemon in the tier that counter this mon that it can be considered an Uber.
Thank you for listening!
octet/
- Minks, SerpentLord, suigin and 1 other
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Looking forward to it!
Giving away one Jack-O-Lantern [Out of tickets]
in Trash
Posted
Sounds good.